I think it would be interesting for this post to be slightly more interactive.
I know I haven't been here often lately, but I think my excuse is decent.
But here I would like to pose some questions and hopefully get some answers.
The idea behind this is that I want opinions, not facts. So there probably aren't any wrong answers. In fact I think it would be especially interesting to get many opinions.
And maybe see where my opinions fit. But regardless of the answers, I definately want to know them. I was hoping to have a few more questions, but I guess some of them have ummm expired. For instance I tried this new shampoo, and it intrigued me, but It left me with more questions than answers. But I digress. So anyway I hope this is as enjoyable and as insightful as I think it can be, but if not please answer the questions anyway. Ü
How about I make eight?
Number 1
--The booklet "For the Strength of the Youth" talks about wearing one pair of modest earings (if one chooses to wear earrings). What does this mean. (I included the whole phrase on purpose but my initial focus is on the word modest.
Number 2
--That same booklet also talks about not wearing tight fitting clothes. What does that mean?
Number 3
Are Sports different?
Are there different rules for modesty while playing sports?
If there are, what are they? And what if you're not playing the sport?
Number 4
Same question, but a little different. What's a modest swimsuit? Maybe I should have said same question only deeper. Get it? And then there's the follow up; What if you're not swimming?
Question 5
Why do people go tanning?
Question 6
What is the girls role in dating?
Is her agency in any way limited?
What should she do? Should she be passive?
Aloof?
Flirtacious?
Active?
Assertive?
Aggressive?
Can she be some of these without being others?
Are there better words than the ones I have chosen to describe her ideal role?
And does her role ever change?
And if it does when?
Number 7
When should people start holding hands?
And what does holding hands mean?
And of course...
Question 8
When should people kiss?
I 'm pretty sure there was more to this question,
but it's gone now.
I actually had these in a different order,
but this order seems to work quite well, so this is how you will get it.
There you have it. I would think it was really wonderful to get a variety of answers to eack of these questions.
In fact I even welcome answers to some of the questions that I didn't ask.
Also, just so you know, When I feel that they have been sufficiently answered, I plan to write a tribute to mothers, and perhaps a blurb about JOBS - It's not what you think.
Anyway thanks again, TTFN
Warnser.
26 comments:
I'm not sure any of these answers that I'm going to give are going to be what you're actually asking, but these are my answers.
#1 - #4: The question is dealing with modesty, and to me, the answer is the same for all of them. What one person considers to be modest is going to be different than what another person considers to be modest. A person's definition is largely influenced by their upbringing and their surroundings during that time period. It is my belief that I am responsible for deciding for myself what modesty means to me and act according to my beliefs and not be judgmental of other people's choices in the same area, even when their definitions are highly different than mine. If you would like to know specifically what my opinion is for myself, you may e-mail me and ask me because my definitions are for myself, based on my comfort level in wearing such items.
#5: To get tan.
#6: I think that a girl should be herself and make choices in accordance with what she feels to be right for her. If she is shy and does nothing, then she will reap the benefits. If she is aggressive, then she will reap the benefits. We all have different personalities. There can be no hard and fast rule that encompasses such a variety of people.
#7: When they want to. Again, this depends upon the personalities of both people and their relationship.
#8: When they want to. Again, this depends upon the personalities of both people and their relationship.
Number 1
--To me it means small-medium-sized earrings that do not cause frustration and/or pain when they're worn.
Number 2
--To me it means that all of my curves (pleasing and non-pleasing) should not be immediately noticeable.
Number 3
--To me, sports are not different. If you can't wear normal clothes to play, I don't want to play.
Number 4
--Swimsuits are concidered "normal clothes" sadly enough. I think a modest swimsuit is one that doesn't show cleavage and covers as much of the back, arms, and legs as possible. I like swim shorts - sort of like those biker shorts, except I would never wear them biking (see number 3). If you're not swimming, I think you should put on clothes again.
Number 5
--To get tan.
Number 6
--I think the girl's role in dating is to be a kind person, treat her date with respect, be honest, be interested in her date, and keep high standards. I also think it's the guy's role, too.
Agency is never limited for girls or guys.
From your list, I think she should be passive, flirtatious, active, and assertive (not all at the same time); but not aloof or aggressive.
These are hard questions to give personal opinions to... I don't concider the above descriptive words as being roles. And I don't really know how to generalize "ideal". I know what my ideal role is - at least up to this point in my dating life, but I think it will change based upon further experience. This probably inspires more questions that provides answers - sorry, it's the best I can do.
Number 7
--I don't know when people should start holding hands. Holding hands to me means "when you hold my hand, you hold my heart."
Number 8
--Also another question I don't know the answer to.
Here is a good quote I found to support some of those prior statements: "The Church will never deny your moral agency regarding what you should wear and exactly how you should look. But the Church will always declare standards and will always teach principles." Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, October 2005.
p.s. in the last paragraph of Number 6, I meant "...more questions than provides answers...", not that. And I'm sorry if the link doesn't work for the Elder Holland quote. It seems to work fine outside of the blog.
You're right those answers may not be actually what I was asking but I will definately email you, because I still want to know the answers.
Also I appreciate your answers.
And I understand that everyone should live at the level of their understanding, (or according to how they feel) and that we should not judge them etc.
To me that actually sounds like part of what I wrote,
but it may be part of what got erased.
Also it seems that question number 5 was umm not exactly what I meant,
It seems to have a very clear answer. And one that I should have known.
Wow sarah,
I actually expected you're answers to look more like cardine's (based on prior conversations). But I appreciate you're answers, and I think they start things off nicely.
Also you're answers sometimes answer very good questions that I didn't ask.
For instance
"what does it mean to hold hands?"
This may be a better question than the one I asked.
And I thought your answer fit it well.
Finally, I like your answer to number 8
BTW if you want to see the link right click and copy the link location. then paste it in the address bar, then delete the BR tag at the end. (that includes both brackets)
Anyway thanks to everyone, for reading, and commenting.
Actually, I would insert something about agency here. I think that a guy's or girl's agency is limited when it deals with someone else's agency, as well. I can choose to go out with John Doe, but if he doesn't want to go out with me, then in that way, my agency is limited because I can't force anyone else to do something.
I think that agency is never limited... only choices. You can exercise your agency to the fullest in any given circumstance. You can chose to ask John Doe out, but you still have as much agency you had before if he says no. You are now faced with a different choice (such as, cry on your pillow... ask someone else... ask him again at a later time... etc.)
everyone is really long winded. Kiera, you should answer these too.
1-Modest earings, I think, are things that don't draw attention to themselves: not big and dangly, not controversial. (I spelled that wrong, I know.)
2- tight fitting is up to interpretation. I know you, particularly, are very critical of girls clothing. I won't criticize someone who really thinks they are trying to be modest, but I would lead by example (being a girl.) As a boy, we've discussed before, you should share your view on the matter if you are interested in the girl....but she would probably already be dressing the right way to make you interested, so maybe you shouldn't worry about it. I think boys wearing really tight cowboy jeans is gross and immodest.
3-I think sports can be different. You have to wear the uniform. You can make efforts to make it as modest as possible..ie wearing biker shorts under short shorts, but there is a limit to what you can do.
4-A modest swimsuit is also open to interpretation. They are very hard to find, especially for girls. Obviously, a bikini is not modest. I think a two piece that consists of a tanktop is okay though.I think if everything is covered and your not trying to be provocative, its probably okay.
5-Pop culture has made it popular.
6-be herself. Don't worry about it. Just have fun. Stop analyzing!
7-hold hands when you're really feeling inspired to do so. Don't worry about social faux pauxs (sp?), or what people will think, or what this will mean for future dates.If you're feeling it, hold hands!
8- that is strictly up to the couple...I always said a month at least but, well, I totally ignored that when I met my husband...tmi?
#1 Okay the thing about the earrings has a history with me. When the talk was given about it I had two pairs of earrings and one on the top of my ear. I didn't feel immodest for wearing them, however I ended up taking out the two pairs of earrings over the last few years because I was sick to death of people (judgemental people) making a comment about them. So now I only have the one on the top which I will never take out. I work for the church and I haven't heard anything about it yet. I like the quote that Sarah gave that says that these things are said to teach principles. I personally feel that if I still had the two pairs of earrings (small hoops) I wouldn't be any less modest. I think the principle is that we are examples to everyone around us and we should portray ourselves properly.
#2 I think that the fabric used today just makes things look tight though I know some people do where extremely too tight clothing. We're girls and we have curves and its hard to not show them unless we strap them down. I am completely against showing any cleavage and low rise jeans are not good (but less face it, choices out there are limited if we want to look good.)
3. I think sports outfits should still be modest and if you have to modify a uniform in some way then go for it. Wearing just a sports bra and small shorts is definitely not modest.
4. I am amazed at how many LDS girls wear bikinis. I am completely okay with the tankini because it covers alot. A one piece or a tankini is what I would say but maybe if I was skinny enough to wear a bikini I might. It's called being comfortable with your body. I'm okay with laying out to get tan, but just walking around in your swimsuit is not a good thing. Put on a shirt.
#5 Most girls think that a darker skin is more attractive. I happen to agree though there a few girls with gorgeous pink skin. But you see South American girls and I'll say it they are quite attractive. Also tanning helps to hide discoloration in your skin.
6. I think girls should act however they most feel comfortable. Be yourselves. I don't think agency is limited in dating unless you make yourself do something you don't want to do.
7-8 I agree with Cardine on this. When you want to. Both of these things do cause complications in some relationships but all relationships are complicated and if you close yourself off to the enjoyable things of dating because you are afraid of being hurt, well then you live a sheltered life. "It is better to have loved and lost"
I hardly feel the need to comment since a)everyone has expressed such fabulous ideas on each point and b)I talked to you about most of what I would say Friday night.
That said, I do have a couple things to add. I agree with Tearese; sometimes you overanalyze things. This isn't meant to be a put-down, I overanalyze things all the time, too. I know that parts of dating confuse you, but you'll never be able to figure it out, EVER. Each girl you date will be different, have different feelings, different attitudes, different reactions, etc. Your friends can give you their opinions on when to hold hands, when to kiss, what's modest, etc 'til we're blue in the face, and it will only marginally help. Maybe that's enough, but just know that it'll never help you to totally figure "IT" out, generally speaking. All you can hope for is to be able to figure it out for the girl you're with at the time. For example, "Margaret" may feel like the time is right to kiss you earlier than "Harriet" would feel it's okay. LISTEN to your feelings, OBSERVE her for signs that she's feeling the same way (some signs are common to most girls), then, if you want to, DARE to act. The worst thing that can happen is that she wasn't ready and backs off. Even that isn't the end of things. So, Good Luck and RELAX, just a bit.
That said, kudos for continuing to try and to hope. I respect that you keep asking out girls even when you feel really frustrated. I truly believe that your efforts and patience will be rewarded someday. She'll be a lucky girl.
I, for one, enjoyed reading everyone's answers. I like to see what everyone's opinions are. Are you going to share yours, Warnser?
Warnser, I would like to hear your opinions, too!
Julie- I like your new picture!
I like your friends and thier coments too.
I disagree that tan skin looks better. I think pale skin is really pretty, if its your natural look and not a sickly pale.
oh, and I agree with Cassie's last comment.
Wow.
Thank you everybody for the comments.
I do have a few opinions of my own,
and since it sounds like people would like to hear them I will be happy to share them.
... But not now,
I really need to get to work.
sorry,
and thank you,
and thank you for your patience.
For Agency I would say something like.
"The Ability to choose right from wrong, and to act for yourself."
And I think in dating that there are probably some right choices, and some wrong ones, but more so just choices.
And to act for yourself.
I think it is important to recognize what cardine said about both people having to make a decision.
And I personally think it would be pretty stupid to pursue a relationship with someone that didn't really want one with you, but more on that later.
(or maybe a bit more here - You know... like those people that say I had a revelation that you should marry me, and no matter what you think or say I will pursue it until it happens. For something so important I would think it would be good if everyone involved agreed.)
Also I enjoyed Sarah's evolution of choices.
Refi,
It is not that I am LOOKING for any certain answers. This is not a blog about right and wrong. It is more that my words are not always adequate.
Thus some of the other questions that you might see here, may restate what I said better.
Or they could be questions like the ones at the end of your post.
I probably wouldn't have thought to ask anything about high heels or nylons, but if you think they are relevant, then for instance those questions could be answered.
Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, wow that's old. I may have to dust that one off.
Are they really that hard to find?
(or is it just that most anything is hard to find (clothing-wise) in this area)
Anyway thanks for your comments
I'll probably agree with some of them when I add mine. Ü
I don't really have anything to say. I just wanted to make your comments hit 20.
Cardine Thank you for bringing me to the magical twenty. Ü
Yes it's true everyone seems to have quite a bit to say.
And I am no exception.
So I guess I will say some more of it.
I like the comment about cowboy jeans, I had to laugh. Even reading it, I did kind of go "ewwww"
I guess I don't know much about tankinis, but they sound more modest.
It sounds like a common message is that people should be true to themselves. I think this is good.
Well Julie,
I'm glad you finally had time to add some comments.
(I kind of wish we had the fuller version here, but what you said is good too... It is enough for me. Ü)
I'm not sure how I feel about never being able to figure things out.
That's the part that bugs me,
Usually I am so good at figuring things out. But in this area... Not so much.
I do think any help, even marginal, is actually of great worth to me.
I hear that you never really figure things out even with your spouse,
but I did do a study once that showed (with a very limited sample) that the longer a couple had been together the more they "figured out" or understood.
Now as for listening to my feelings, I guess I am getting better at this,
but as for Observing,
Well I have to say I'm terrible.
I've never been very good at this.
Whenever I think someone is waving at me they're not, When I think they are waving at someone else,
They're not.
And If I can't even tell with a wave, I'm pretty much sunk with anything better.
I'm not sure exactly why but I really have no skills in this.
Which is, of course, one of the reasons that I dislike parts of dating so much.
I could probably go on here,
I could probably write a whole blog about this, but I guess that can wait.
And even if the sign is common among girls. There's a good chance I don't really know much about it.
Sure I've heard things, and had some classes, but I'm not sure that I'm much further for it. I just don't seem to ever see the things I've learned, or I don't give them much credibility.
But here's the part that I like the most.
Yes it's true I used a superlative.
I love that you are so supportive of me and my dating.
I love that you tell me that you appreciate my efforts.
even when I know my efforts could be greater.
This in part, helps me to want my efforts to be better.
This in part helps me to know that the key for me is to keep at it.
Thank you for your compliments.
I've finally made it...
It is time for me to say what I think.
Unfortunately I did not exactly follow my own advice. Some of the comments have like influenced my own.
I don't have enough time to write them yet,
but they are coming very soon
Thanks again
Warnser
Ok brace yourselves.
Here it comes,
but remember, these are just my opinions.
Also I would like to add some comments that I have heard in various places.
To um round things out a bit.
1. Earrings
I think that the more an earring draws attention, The less it can be modest. As a follow up to that I think that an earring that might be appropriate for some shmancy formal function would lose some of it's modesty with a sweatshirt and Jeans.
Generally I'm not a huge fan of hoops. but I have seen varying degrees of modest in hoops.
One of my friends said she thought a girl ought to be able to wear hoops at least 1 1/2 - 2 inches around.
I think I would usually have my upper cap in that area.
I think the Thickness of the metal can make a big difference here.
Or the earrings' visual weight.
I saw some earrings that were much larger than this, but they were very thin. In fact I barely noticed them.
In this particular instance They did not strike me as immodest earrings.
2.
What is Tight
I like what has been said about tight Jeans. I guess I had forgotten about that part of the question.
I think if a person can tell where another person's belly button is,
then their shirt is too tight.
(Or in some other way not quite right... but that's another topic)
And of course anything that was good that was said by anyone else.
Ü
3. Sports
I guess I do see some room for varience in sports, but for me, I would try to be as consistent as possible.
I don't nessicarily believe that having an audience should give you license to play by less strict rules.
Actually I think in a way it should help you to enforce the higher ones.
I think it is possible to have "more modest" outfits, without significantly affecting ones' ability to perform or play.
And certainly if you are not in a uniform requisite situation, normal modesty rules should apply.
I guess this is sort of like my earrings answer. (you may see that a lot) Keep it on the court, that' what I say.
4. Swim away
For some reason society has allowed us to completely change the rules when it comes to swimming.
Because this is so so common, I suppose I basically accept it too.
But I basically agree with the things that have been said already.
Basically my thoughts are cover as much as you can.
and cover that too if you can.
I don't think everyone should have to wear shirts to swim in, but I not opposed to it either.
And as has been said, if your not swimming cover up. I think that's fair.
No speedos for guys.
I think a suit (for girls)
should cover more of the back,
And definately the belly.
But I don't really care about the number of pieces.
5. The Tan
Personally I don't really understand tanning. I don't always think it looks better, And I know people with serious amounts of skin cancer.
It scares me.
To me I think it's about health.
I know that there are people who really like tans. But I guess I don't get it. Yes I know there are medical reasons for these things.
Some people have skin conditions when a doctor would prescribe it. And sure the sun helps provide us with vitamin D, but for me the long term effects are more important than the short term ones.
Yes a little natural sun can make some people look better.
But I don't think it takes much,
and I wouldn't likely ever go tanning, or purposely try to get a tan. If I needed more sun, I would probably find something that I could do outside, Like soccer or something. I would want to use sunblock, and let the sun help my skin color if it could.
I have to admit though,
I like fair skin.
I like naturally "exotic" skins too.
But I like fair.
6. 7. & 8. Blanket statements.
I think there are a couple of principles that help clarify my thoughts here. (and maybe in other places in this blog too.
I know that some of this has been said, but I will say what ever comes to me.
P#1.
I think it is very important for people to be true to theirselves.
P#2
It is far better (more useful) for a person to talk to a person, then it is to talk about them.
P#3
We do not have lives that are designed to allow us to blame others for where we are. All people have agency, and all are expected to be accountable to themself.
P#4
people should agree to the activities that they participate in (such as kissing) see #1
6. Girls and dating.
See above.
I don't believe anyone should be passive in matters that are so important.
Aloof: Same answer here.
Flirtacious.
Well I guess I see it both ways here. I think a little flirting is usually a good thing. Too much can be well, too much. And if it's not happening then it's just that much harder for those of us that "Have to Act." or perhaps a better word is ask.
Active: see passive modify accordingly. ( I think these to are near opposites)
Assertive: She should be if she is.
Aggressive: I'm thinking not so much. I think there are plenty of ways to be involved, and even perhaps assertive, without being to aggressive.
Part two.
I will expound upon my general thoughts. I think people should be true to theirselves. I think it would be somewhat dishonest to act in a different manner while dating then you would plan to act while married.
I think it is very decietful to do things "just until you get married."
"Just until you have sealed the deal." and then to change your behavior. Yes it's true I think that the person you married should be more important, than the ones you date, or could marry.
I think this applies to how one looks, how one makes decisions.
and what things a person will and won't do.
I know this is not always the case.
And I can except it if my wife doesn't look perfect as she gets out of bed. Or even goes through a rough spell. but on the whole I still believe that we should treat our spouses at the same level, or a better one, than we gave them while we dated.
And the follow up to that is
That I think we as people have different levels on which we act.
I think in dating people (all people) should bring their A-game.
Give it a good effort, yes this includes me too.
I should shave more often,
I should get enough sleep.
I should try to not only be myself
but to be my best self
(yep I stole that)
( I should probably repent)
7. Holding hands.
I have heard probably the widest variety of answers here.
One apartment of girls I was visiting said that one of them was dating someone who obviously didn't like her much, because he wouldn't hold her hand. After all it had been four dates.
I see two things here.
First I thought he probably did like her, after all, she got four dates.
Second no matter how much they talked about him and his hands it wasn't going to affect his actions.
Talking about him was less effective than talking to him.
They said they were "sending all the signs"
I said, "well take his hand or talk to him about it."
I think communication is nice.
I really do.
If someone tried to hold my hand and I wasn't ready, I would want to tell them why.
I think that is only fair.
I think it is very important for people to understand that each person moves through a relationship a different pace. and different symbols (like holding hands) have different meanings to people.
People fall in love at different paces, and people have different expectations. But it seems to me that if you really care about someone then their timing becomes more important to you too. (especially if yours is quicker than theirs)
And of course communication. I think this blog shows quite clearly that everyone is different.
But if you don't talk about it,
and I mean with the person invovled, you really have no right to hold them accountable.
Yes you may be sending signs,
but maybe they don't know that one.
Ü
And yes all of your other friends might totally see it, but sometimes even if they are totally "into you" they might miss it.
Maybe they miss is because they like you. Maybe they are nervous.
I don't know why I miss signs.
(or as one of my friends corrected me today- body language) but I really don't have much talent here.
That's ok I guess,
but it doesn't make things any easier, for me.
I think that holding hands definately shows some kind of interest (you know, holding hands for the sake of holding hands).
The other side of the story is that I know of people would end a relationship if you tried to hold their hand on the fourth date.
I think again talking about things like this could be useful.
8. The Kiss.
I leader of mine said something like this "Kissing is not bad."
I agree, however I would add,
Kissing can be addictive.
I would say be in control.
and have boundaries.
To me a kiss is a symbol of serious commitment.
I don't give them freely,
I think they should be earned.
and of course see above answers.
Ttfn
And thanks for reading.
and for your comments
W
yes I'm long winded too,
but you probably knew that by now.
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